Pam Wells

🎙️ KEEPIN’ IT RIO PODCAST – EPISODE 257
Featuring Pam Wells

In Episode 257 of the Keepin’ It Rio Podcast, Chuck sits down with author and advocate Pam Wells for one of the most powerful and emotional conversations we’ve had on the show.

Pam stopped by to discuss her book, In Their Shoes — a deeply personal collection of first-person accounts inspired by people she met while hospitalized and battling severe depression. During some of the darkest moments of her life, Pam struggled with hopelessness, overwhelming emotional pain, and thoughts of suicide.

But through patience, perseverance, and daily determination, she continues fighting forward while living with constant pain and adversity. Her mission today is simple but powerful: help people who feel alone realize they are not alone.

This episode is raw, honest, inspiring, and a reminder that even in the darkest moments, there is still hope.

Pam’s story is only beginning — and her work is already making an impact.

📚 Purchase “In Their Shoes” Here:

Indigo – [Indigo](https://shorturl.at/XFAyc?utm_source=...)

Heritage (St. Catharines, Ontario) – [Heritage CBS](https://heritagecbs.com/item/f2bR0qjG...)

Barnes & Noble (US) – [Barnes & Noble](https://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/Pame...)

Amazon Canada – [Amazon Canada](https://shorturl.at/zflhY?utm_source=...)

Amazon US – [Amazon US](https://shorturl.at/zCRO4?utm_source=...)

Kobo Canada – [Kobo Canada](https://www.kobo.com/ca/en/ebook/in-t...)

Kobo US – [Kobo US](https://shorturl.at/oiWdQ?utm_source=...)

Friesen Press – [Friesen Press](https://books.friesenpress.com/store/...)

Apple Books – [Apple Books](https://books.apple.com/ca/book/in-th...)

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Favorite time of the week. Once again, it is keeping it real time. And you know that this is going to be an amazing episode because they all are. But today is episode 257, and I'm very excited for today's guest. We literally just met about three minutes ago. But I feel like we're going to have a great conversation today. This episode's going to be good. And I think we're going to be able to touch some people and maybe we can help some folks. And at the end of the day, that's all this is really about. So it is an absolute honor, folks, for me to welcome today's guest, Pam Wells, to the show. Pam, welcome to the show. Great to meet you. How's everything going today?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Thank you so much for having me. Um, today's a good day. Uh, it's it's really nice and warm here. The windows are open. Um, I'm in Canada. I'm in Niagara Falls, Canada. And windows are open, the sun is shining. It's a good day.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Well, don't let me forget at the end of the episode, I have something that I need to ask you about that's completely unrelated to anything that we're doing. Okay. Another podcast, and what you just told me fits right in. So welcome to the show. I love people from Canada. I have a I did a morning show this morning on a different platform with a young lady from Canada and Ontario.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

So I'm in Ontario too. So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

We two for two on Ontario.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

We have a lot of friends in the US. So I we've traveled quite a bit in the U.S. I love the I love the U.S.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Absolutely. I do too. And hopefully at the end of this show, you're gonna count me as one of your new friends here in the US, and I think that we're gonna make that happen. Sounds good. Without any further ado, my friend, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll just take that conversation and run?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Okay. Well, uh my journey with this particular topic started, oh, around 2008-2009. My husband had to go for Quinn Tupple bypass surgery. It was a very traumatic time in our house, and he got through the surgery very well, but there was complication after complication. I don't know how many times he was put in an ambulance and rushed off to the hospital. Um, so it was extremely stressful. Now I rose to the occasion and did what I could to help my husband if as any good wife would, and I do love him. So yeah, I supported him 100% through the whole thing. But when it was over, when he got better and was back at work, I just went downhill. I just plummeted into the deepest, darkest depression I've ever been in. Um, this went on now for then for three years. I was in therapy for the three years. I was in and out of the hospital because the depression was so bad. I attempted suicide at one point, then back in the hospital. Um, it was a difficult time. And through that, my husband, well, at first it was really hard to talk to him about it because he didn't understand depression. He's one of those who made the odd comment, you know, when he heard about it on TV, he'd say something like, Oh, good grief, talk yourself out of it, or snap out of it, that kind of thing. Which if you were if you're ever going through depression, you know that if you could snap out of it, you would. Nobody enjoys being depressed. So, um, but I just it just it was obvious that he didn't understand. And I will say that he stood by my side through the whole thing. He never wavered when I was hospitalized. He was there every single day. Um, so very supportive. So when he one day he asked me, it's like, what can I do? And I said, You're doing it. I said, What I need from you, you're doing it. You're loving me and supporting me through this, and that's what I need the most. But he still being a guy, he wanted to fix it, which he can't fix someone who's depressed, but um, he really wanted to help. So it got me thinking, like as I was getting better, I started thinking that I should write a book about what depression feels like, because people think it's just being sad. And anyone who's dealt with depression knows it's a lot more to it than just feeling sad. Um, but I everybody's story is different. So the way things happen for me might be different than somebody else. So I thought to write a really good book about this, I need to get the perspective of several other people. So thankfully, I'd exchanged email addresses. Um, there was one hospital I went to. It's called Homewood Healthcare Facility. And you know the Betty Ford Clinic? I'm sure you've heard of the Betty Ford Clinic. Absolutely. Betty Betty Ford originally went to Homewood Healthcare Facility in Ontario, and she was so impressed with how that place was run that she used it to model uh her Betty Ford clinic. So I thought that was interesting. And quite a few celebrities, I guess, go to Homewood, but I didn't see any when I was there. But you I was there for eight weeks. Now, my husband wasn't visiting me daily when I was there because it it was like a two-hour drive, but he came every weekend. Um, anyway, um, while I was there, yeah, for an eight-week session, you really become like family with the other people that are there because you're all there for the same reason. Everybody's depressed, and you'd be surprised how much laughter there was in the depressed ward. Because we have so much in common, we could share stories and we could laugh at ourselves or laugh at situations, and which to me is very healthy. But I loved going to dinner with these folks because we would just there's a meme on Facebook that says being popular on Facebook is like sitting at the cool table in the psych ward. And I thought, hey, I've sat at the cool table in the psych ward, and it's actually pretty great. So we had some interesting times there, but um, anyways, that's how I got all these email addresses. So I emailed everyone I had and I asked them if they'd be interested in participating in this book, like this book right here. Um I put together a list of questions and I sent the same questions to each person and just asked them to please answer these and get back to me. Um, some people couldn't handle a list of questions, so they just wrote a couple of paragraphs summing up their experience, and that was fine. I didn't nitpick anything or push anything on anybody, but most people answered the questions. And once all the questions are done, I said, if you've got anything else you want to add that I didn't think of, please, this is your time to place to say whatever you want to say. So all that's included in the book. Now, my experience um personally was associated with the church, but I don't want people to think, oh, it's a religious book. It's not. Um, my story involves some things about the church, but the people I interviewed came from all different walks of life, different lifestyles, different races, different uh faiths. I mean, I didn't wasn't I didn't care about any of that, I just was focusing on the depression. So you've got a variety of people answering questions about what it feels like, also what to say that might help them and what not to say. I think everyone that's depressed knows exactly what they hate hearing, and it's like just cheer up. Or as a Christian in the church, people would come up and quote scripture to me. And I was just like, all that did was make me feel like I was a failure. It didn't help at all. So for someone who's not a Christian, it's the same type of thing, only you get platitudes from other people. Um focus on the positive, you know, and just think of what you're thankful for every day. It's hard to do that when you're depressed. Depression, it's it's like being at the bottom of a pit, which is why the book has like it's a pit here, and there's a woman on a ladder coming up. I remember feeling like I was in the bottom of a pit and it was dark and it was awful down there. And if I looked up, I could see a little bit of light, but I couldn't reach it, and I didn't have the strength to climb out. And I've said sometimes people would lower a ladder into me down, and I still didn't have the strength or even the desire to climb out. Depression can actually become your comfort zone, which sounds bizarre, but when you've been there enough, it's familiar and I don't know, it just zaps your energy so that you don't feel like doing anything. So um, that's why I have a woman coming. She's on the ladder, she's either coming up or going down, depending on your perspective. I choose to believe she's coming up and getting out of that pit. Um, so let's see, trying to think of you've got a specific questions you wanted to ask, or yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Now, number one, I always loved you know the journey of authors. Like I told you before, I think you're my 42nd or 43rd author on the podcast, which is kind of interesting because I, you know, I that was never my intention, it's just kind of worked out, and everybody's got a unique story. And obviously, like you just said, everybody's journey in life is completely different, but we do find things along the way that we have in common, and you're sometimes surprised by the people that you have certain things in common with, and that really kind of triggered a question in my mind when you said that is okay, number one, I you know, and I don't want to be too personal by any means. I I sincerely appreciate your journey. I I always like to find out, you know, from the beginning. Do you know what your trigger was? Was it a sense of not having that that someone needing you to care for them at that point anymore? Or what was it that led to your initial depression when your husband was able to recover and get back into doing work? Seems like at that point there was something that changed, and and that's the big thing. Have you ever been able to really pinpoint the source of what led you down that path?

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Um, yeah, that I'm not sure. It's not because I didn't have someone to care for, because my husband has always been the strong one in our relationship. It's like he takes care of me, and he always has right from the get-go. Like he's just been wonderful. Um, so having the situation flipped where I had to be the the strong one, I had to run the errands and take the garbage out and all that, and I didn't mind. I mean, I'm not complaining, but having the role reversal, yeah, it was a bit hard, but um I came from a very abusive home. So there was a lot of inner trauma, I guess, and I think the fear of losing him, and just it just became like, what would I do without him? Um now one thing my therapist said is it will be a challenge. You can say, I don't know how I'll get through it, but I will. And anyways, that was helpful. I just had to focus better, but um I know I was gonna say, Oh, I yeah, something else I wanted to say. After I got all better from depression, got through everything, and I was doing great for a few years, everything was great, and then a mystery pain started, uh, which gradually grew and grew and led to multiple doctors' appointments, and I've been diagnosed with a very painful nerve condition. So, in case you haven't noticed, I'm actually lying in bed right now. Um, I have to lay down because sitting is really painful for me. So, I mean, at one point my daughter asked me, What's worse, mom? The depression you went through or the pain you're in now? Because I'm in pain 24-7. I can't sit without pain. So traveling days are over. Um, and we used to travel quite a bit, so that's a bummer. But when she said, What's worse? This physical pain or the depression, I didn't even hesitate. I said the depression was worse, which tells me you really need we as a society need to focus more on mental health. Um, I think if we focus more on mental health, like meaning starting when children are little and teaching them how to handle their emotions and and work through things when they're young, we would have less physical illnesses. And I really believe that if we can help people mentally, they'll do better physically. It just makes sense that it goes together.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you 100%. It's it's it's really something, and and there are so many people that battle things secretly, you know, that never had the courage to come forward like you had, that never really understand that there are people that will actually understand where they're at, or that there's someone somewhere that can relate to them. And I think that's the most beautiful thing when you find that that scenario, you find that surrounding, that environment. Like you said, when you go in, you're gonna be in this for eight weeks and you're gonna go through extensive treatment. And throughout that process, you can't help but grow as a a group with the folks that are in there with you. And I'd like to ask your you know, your input on that experience. Some of the folks that you were able to meet in there, if you have any specific examples of anyone that maybe, you know, when you were feeling absolutely at maybe your lowest point, there was someone that came there that you would have never expected, or if you were outside and in you know, general life, you know, day to day, you probably would never meet this person. Yeah. And it actually turns out to be somewhat of a blessing in that moment because that's one of the more instrumental things that kind of helped towards your recovery. So, were you able to make some obviously where you wrote a book about it and you got a lot of people to participate? But tell me about some of the folks that you met along the way, some of the things that you guys found that you had in common that may have been surprising.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Well, there was one woman that actually educated me quite a bit, um, because I was I was raised in an abusive home, but it was also strictly religious. If you know anything about Mennonites, I was raised in a very strict Mennonite home. Um, not the old-fashioned Mennonites that are like the Amish. We were we had cars and electricity, but it was very strict and very anti LGTBQ and all those. So I always thought being gay was a sin. And when I got when I was in this um hospital, uh all of a sudden the name went out of my head, but anyway, when I was there, one of the women in the room next to me was gay. And when I got to know her as a person, I forgot that she was gay, and I just liked her for who she was, and we became friends, and that really opened my eyes to start to see where I was wrong in some of my beliefs, and I had to be more open. And so meeting her was fantastic, and then halfway through my stay there, a person came in who was clearly transitioning, transition, transitioning from male to female, and at first it was really awkward because uh who's are who are they gonna room with? The guys or the girls. Um, most people had roommates, you'd have to pay extra if you wanted a private room. So, anyways, one woman stepped forward and said she would be happy to be this person's roommate. So it worked out, but getting to know that person too was eye-opening for me, and seeing the stress and the they were going through, it was just yeah, it was an eye-opening for me. Another thing was there was a woman there who is a doctor, and she had a nervous breakdown due to depression, and she was there, and while she was there, she realized she couldn't go back to what she was doing before, which is very common when you have a nervous breakdown due to depression, or I don't know, there could be other things too. I'm not an expert here, I'm not a doctor and I'm not a psychiatrist, but to think about all the years she worked at studying to become a doctor to find out she can't go back to it because it was too hard on her mentally. Um, I don't know what she ended up doing. We did not stay in touch, but um it's just you don't realize how much depression affects a person. It really is it it was for me, it was the worst time of my life, hands down. I can't think of anything I've been through that was worse than the depression I was in. It's a really horrible place to be. But um, I always had a room, I had a roommate when I was in there, and when I walked in the door and met her, she goes, Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I snore. I was like, Oh glad I brought earplugs, and she did snore really loud. But she turned out to be a wonderful person, and when she was extra down, I would encourage her, and vice versa. She was definitely a support for me, and we stayed in touch for a few years afterwards. Um, but she got cancer, unfortunately, and she's not here anymore. But um in this book, I keep all the names anonymous, but there was some people that like I could say, okay, this is the name of somebody who was my roommate when I was at homewood. But there were some people that said, I don't want you to say where you knew me, where we met, nothing, because the stigma of depression is so great. They just didn't want people in their lives knowing that they had been at this hospital and that they had been through this. And that's a shame. I'm just sorry to see when people have to hide it because they're embarrassed. Um, and there was a mixture of men and women, it was not predominantly one or the other. So depression definitely hits both. And yeah, it was a it was a really good experience for me being there, um, very eye-opening.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

I think that's amazing, and and you know, it it's it's one of those things where you you really stop and think about it, and I think everybody, everybody's going through something at some point. And and some things you really said, you know, something that kind of hit me earlier was people that don't understand. I don't think that people have ill intent or that they mean harm, yeah, but I just think that people not understanding because of not really experiencing similar feelings or or going through those experiences, really, you know, that that's the hardest part because in a lot of cases it's people that are the closest to you. And I think when you get into an environment where you realize, okay, these people they do love me, but this is this is kind of hurting me at this time. So the time that we're gonna spend away from each other is gonna be very beneficial, potentially for both. And we can learn from this together and we can become better as we go through it. So you go through this this journey and you find yourself, you know, really relating to other folks that maybe you had never thought that you would ever relate to in life. And you were taught, you know, even so far as to not relate to these folks in any way. Yeah, and you start to see a little bit of a change in the world through your eyes, and you start to realize, okay, well, this is this is different than what I thought it was. And I'm I'm starting to open up and I'm starting to grow a little bit, and you start to see a little bit of light as you go because you start to realize that some of the things are like really actually very happy. And I love to hear about this part, okay. So you you have dealt with deep depression, and I understand. I've never been to that that level, but I know a lot of folks, and I've you know, I've seen a lot of people, and and life is tough, and I know what it's Like to really feel like, you know, goodness, there's nothing to do here. And who knows? But you found a you know, a group that was very supportive, that was able to help you. And throughout the process, you you continue to heal, you continue to evolve and get better. You come back out, and now you're okay. And this is when the happiness really starts to blossom, I hope. And I always love to ask that because it is again a transition that you're going to go through from a safe environment to another safe environment, but in a different kind of way that also does have you know potential triggers from the outside that you wouldn't have when you were not in that surrounding. So, what was that like for you when you came back home? Were you able to get back into just a normal routine and everything was good? Or did you experience some moments of anxiety and you know hiccups?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, I I wasn't through it yet. Um, in home when I was at homewood, it's almost like being back in school. There was classes to go to when they teach you cognitive skills and all this stuff, um, and group stuff like you've seen on TV where they have group therapy, people sitting in a group. Um but yeah, when I came home, no, I was still not oh well, I was not better yet at that point. Um it was definitely a step in my healing for for sure. Um, but no, I I couldn't handle going like places like Walmart or the mall where there's a lot of people and bright lights and noise, and it just it was overstimulation and I couldn't handle it. Um once I got better, it was like I wanted to go to the mall and it did it didn't bother me. So it's that's how I knew I was getting better. But yeah, um coming home was a little hard at first, going back to seeing friends that knew that I'd been in this place. But I mean, my my friends were supportive to a degree, they just didn't understand it. But I mean, I don't understand what someone else, maybe someone with MS, is going through something horrible, and I don't understand what it's like for them. It's just so I got it that people don't understand this, and like you said, everybody is going through something. I don't think anybody out there has a perfect, easy life where they can just coast through life and there's no problems. So everybody has something. Um, but when I was going through the severe depression, and when I'm going through this physical pain now, friends kind of fade away a bit. It's just because they don't know what to say, they don't know how to help, they feel uncomfortable or they don't want to bother me. It's just um, I I do talk a lot about stuff like that in the book, about simple things you can do. I just I want to give you one example from our past that um was a good good way of showing that you just need to be there for someone. Um my dad, yeah, he was abusive, but I have gotten to the point where I've totally forgiven him and moved on from it. He's the reason I'm in pain now. This this was caused by what he did to me, but I forgive him, and that was not an easy place to get because I that was in my years of therapy. Um I forgot my train of thought. This happens a lot.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

No, I understand, and and you know it it I think that's the most powerful revelation right there, what you just said is being able to forgive and to say, okay, you know what? This was a terrible scenario, and it's it's awful, and nobody should ever have to go through this. But I think you know, continuing to to relive the past, you never are going to get through it, and it'll haunt you for the rest of your days. So I think that that's that's very admirable. And I know that a lot of people never get to the point where they're able to do that. And I know from personal experience, I've seen, you know, people that that all the way up until the end are are harboring resentment towards others or you know, things that that may have gone differently. And I think it takes a lot of courage, and I give you a lot of um, I give you a lot of respect for that because that's one of the hardest things that there is to do in this life is to admit that uh, you know, it was hard. We're not perfect. And yeah, you did that. You've you've come a long way, and I really, I really respect that because I know exactly where you're coming from. And you said a couple things there that really just kind of hit home for me really, really kind of hard. So I'm a little bit shook at the moment, but I do want to talk a little bit about okay, you you've gotten to the point where you've you're you know still dealing with everything, you've gotten out your home, but I'd love to talk about something happier, which of course is your book. And at some point throughout this timeline, we haven't even gotten to this stage yet, but you've decided that you're gonna write a book, and now it's time to go ahead and put this into action. So let's talk a little bit about that experience. Tell me first, okay, what was the setting when you decided, you know what, I'm gonna write a book about this experience, and it's gonna be completely unique and it's gonna be from a perspective that nobody else has ever given. Yeah, and it's gonna be amazing. What was uh what was your, you know, what where were you at when this all happened? What was the the setting?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Mostly, mostly it was my husband that inspired me. Um, my husband is the polar opposite of my dad. My therapist said I I gravitated towards him because he felt safe, which I think she's right on that. Um, but anyways, the fact that he didn't understand and he wanted so desperately to help, that was my inspiration because so many people don't understand what depression is like and just think it's sadness. So I he was my inspiration for writing the book, but then yeah, I just started writing a book about my life story, and then I just thought, who's gonna want to read it? Like I'm nobody famous, nobody knows who I am. My friends and family might read it, but that is not no, this has to be different, and that's when I thought it's going to be a thin book. You can see how thin it is, because someone who's depressed won't pick up a thick book. I can guarantee it. When I was depressed, if you handed me a thick book and said this will help, I would have just been overwhelmed by it and put it aside. So this one is deliberately kept thin and short, short to the point. There's um when I ask the questions, there's pages where you can answer them yourself. There's some, so you can even use it like a workbook, that kind of thing. Um but oh I remember the story I wanted to share that that that's what brought up my father having cancer. When he had cancer and was in the hospital, and it was clear he was not coming home, he was dying. One morning my mother opened the front door, and there was a bag of some apples on the porch. And there was a note from some from friends of ours who owned an orchard, an apple orchard. They were fruit farmers. Niagara region is called the banana belt, but it's it's no bananas. But there's a lot of fruit in Niagara, uh Niagara area. Anyway, they sent some apples and they were just with a note saying we're thinking of you. And the following week, she opened the door to find a small basket of apples and said, We just want you to know that we're still thinking about you, and and you're on our minds every day. And that was nice. And then I think it was a week or two later, she opened the door and there was a bushel basket full of apples. And the note said, I know right now the last thing you need is more apples, but we really want you to know that we we care, and that meant so much to my mother and the rest of us, too, is just so no, just someone showing they care. So if you know someone who's depressed, you don't have to give them apples. I do share the apple story in here, and there's another one too that's good. But um, there are little things you can do that you don't have to spend money. You know, if friends would have just sent me a text or an email saying, hey, thinking about you, hope you're doing okay, that would have meant the world to me. But they didn't understand, so they pulled back instead of helping. So I wanted to write this book to not just to help people who are depressed, but to help those who don't understand but maybe care about someone who's depressed. And this book is a good tool for both.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about the process. You're you're a published author now, my friend. And every author that I've had on this show has had a completely different experience. I've had people that have used ghostwriters, I've had people that have written it down with a pen and paper, I've had people that have gone up into the mountains for two weeks and come back down with a book. I've had people that just sat down and penned a bestseller overnight. So I would love to hear a little bit about your experience, especially as you gather these stories that you're gonna put together to compile this book. Tell me a little bit about how you reach out to the folks. And, you know, you said a lot of them were were willing to help, but not really willing to, you know, don't say my name, don't say that we were there, which I agree with you. That is really kind of sad because at the end of the day, you go through the entire process of healing, and that just kind of shows that you're really not totally, you know, over whatever the trauma was, but they were willing to help with that. So tell me a little bit about the process that you went through with that, and then we'll talk about how this all got put onto paper and you know the process you went through with that as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Um, yeah, I just I compiled these emails and then I felt overwhelmed. I get overwhelmed easy, I still do me too, but I'd get overwhelmed and I'd put them aside, and then months would go by without me doing anything, and then at one point I kind of got mad at myself and said, You're sitting on some really valuable information here and it needs to get out there. So I would make myself work on it, and I I think I enjoyed the process of writing. I had I'd previously written a novel which never took off, but um I think it was therapy therapeutic just writing it, so it didn't matter that it didn't take off. And I've since I had it on Amazon as an ebook, and I have since pulled it because I think it needs a complete rewrite. But um anyway, this book, yeah. I just part of I one tip I read somewhere was just write, just sit down and write. Don't worry about the grammar or punctuation, or you can go back and fix that later, but just start writing. And so I would do that, just sit there and let the thoughts flow out onto well. I used a laptop. Um, and then I'd go back later and edit it out things or or because I can be too little talkative, so I'd have to prune back some things. But I think I I enjoyed putting together all the the responses from people. Um it was just really interesting. It was really good. It was interesting hearing how the different perspective, how different our perspectives were, and yet a common thread amongst us all. And I think that's why we bonded so much while in the hospital, because you have that common thread. But um writing it, I uh you'd think writing the book would be the hardest part, but I didn't find it to be the hardest part. Although I will say it took me a number of years to get this completely finished, because I every now and then I would get too much of it in my head and I'd have to put it aside. I guarded my mental, I do guard my mental health very carefully since then. So if I feel something is pulling me down, then I take a step back because I'm not going back into that pit ever again. Um but I eventually got it finished and then it sat there. Um I had it in a binder, which I lent the binder out to a few friends that read it, and and the thought feedback was really good. So eventually I thought, okay, I I really do want to get this published, and made the mistake of saying that on Facebook. And when you say something like that on Facebook, the scammers just they're like, I don't know, it's what how to explain. There's like they just boom in an attack. And what the first one that came to me and said I would be happy to publish your book for you, and it'll cost X amount of dollars. And anyways, the guy was really good, like very smooth talking, and every email and how the progress coming along sounded so good. He was a scammer, he was a complete scammer. Um, I thought he was talking to me from somewhere in the US, but he was in India. Big surprise, and I was out $3,000. Um, thanks to our credit card company, I was able to get that money back. So that was huge. But after that, it's like, who do I trust now? So yeah, I asked my my son-in-law is like genius level smart. This guy is a brainiac, but with great brains comes also anxiety, which is a I deal with anxiety in this book some too, but um anyway, I asked him, can you find me a Canadian publisher that's legit? So I don't run down that scam hole again. So he sent me, he recommended Freesen Press, which is a Canadian company. I think they do some stuff in the US too, but I'm not sure. Anyway, um, he said they're not cheap, but they're legit and they'll do a good job for you. So it took close to a year, which I was never thought it would take so long, but they nitpicked through every page and they really did a thorough, thorough job on you know, keeping everything, the grammar right. And I made it clear that the interview questions from people that you're not they weren't allowed to change any of the wording. I said you can, you know, punctuation, capitalization, that kind of thing is fine, but do not change any of their words because I wanted to stay true to the interview. Capture the essence. Yeah, it was very important to me, and some of them swore a couple like minor damn or something, which in the past I would never want to include in a book I wrote. I I've changed since then, and I used to be a real prude, I've lightened up quite a bit. Um, anyway, I kept all that in the book because it was important to me to stay true. And even my husband said when I took it to the freezing press, he says, Don't let them change any of the interview responses. And I said, No, I already made that clear. So um, yeah, that took close to a year. Then finally out it came. And I ordered some books and I've got some here, so I've given some away. Um, I've mailed some off to people that are dear to me that I know could use it. Um, but the marketing part is is hard getting the book seen, noticed. Um, Amazon doesn't put this out front because it's a new book, it's by an unknown author. Um there's two reviews on Amazon.com, but on Amazon.ca there's none. Um, so it gets a little frustrating. But and then again, scammers zoom in like crazy to help me market the book. And I know I've paid money to get it promoted a few times and not seen any results, and I don't think the person followed through with what they said they were gonna do. And so it's like, yeah, you have to be really super careful. If anybody watching this is thinking of publishing a book, I do recommend going on Facebook and join a lot of the author groups. There's join several because that's where I learned more about the scammer technique and what to watch for kind of thing. But um yeah, so it took now I'm at the point where I'm just trying to the book is done and I'm trying to get it out there. But I didn't write it to get rich. I don't expect I'm gonna become a millionaire with this book, although it would be nice. But I um I really wrote this because I truly want to help people because I know how absolutely horrible depression is and how it can destroy your life. Um, not everybody that's depressed is suicidal, but sometimes there's suicidal, what do they call it, suicidal ideation, where it's kind of there in the back of your mind, but you're not actually planning to do anything. Uh, there's a lot of that out there. Uh, I think if we took an honest poll, you'd be surprised how many people struggle with thoughts like that.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

To be honest with you, I would be shocked if it was not a hundred percent. Yeah, if it was not a hundred percent, I would assume that somebody was lying because that's just human nature. At some point, you know, we live you know X amount of years and experience all kinds of things, and not all of them are good and happy, and and sometimes you have a hard time dealing with it. And yeah, like like I said earlier, that's the toughest part is being able to acknowledge that fact and then say, okay, I need to do something to change this. And that's where the real courage is. And I know that there are so many people that live in, you know, like the shadow, and they don't ever really step out of that because you don't want to be chastised, you don't want people to criticize you, you don't want to be pointed at, you don't want, you know, because in those situations, you do feel like everything is magnified, you feel like everybody notices everything that's wrong with you, every imperfection that you have. And in reality, nobody does. Everybody's living their own life and they're trying to do their own thing, and nobody really is that that attentive to what's going on, but you're hyper-focused on it because that's just what you believe in that moment. So to overcome that is extremely powerful. And like I said, I give you a ton of respect for that because it's it's not easy, I know.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah, and yeah, you you nailed it when you said like every little slight is magnified when you're depressed. Like if somebody said, I'm gonna call you this week and we'll do lunch, and then they'd forget to call me. Yeah, I would be so hurt. And the fact is, I really didn't even want to go out for lunch, but that's not the point. They said they were gonna call and they didn't, and that happened a few times, and that hurts. That really hurts. And I know when the depression was at its worst and I was absolutely miserable and everybody knew it, I couldn't hide it at that point. There was a couple times there were two times there were events that I would normally have been invited to, and I wasn't invited, and that hurt terribly. And the thing is, I didn't want to go anyway, but it it was the point. It's like, I wish that someone had just called me and said, Look, we know that you are going through a really hard time right now. We want you to know that you're welcome. We want you to come, but if you'd rather just stay home, we understand. Like, I would rather they say something like that than just not invite me. That would have shown some respect and caring and it would have meant the world to me. But instead, I sat home and cried, you know, like because I wasn't invited when I should have been there. Um stuff like that. It's just, but even every and even the smallest of slights, though, is magnified when you're depressed, and it doesn't take much to offend somebody who's going through it, unfortunately. But a lot of that's here more than you know it is. Because people do mean well, people do mean well.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Uh and I think that's the hardest part about it. I thought I think that if the folks that that you were, you know, at home, you know, heartbroken over the fact that they didn't call, if they would have even in their mind thought about it for even a split second, it would have been a completely different scenario. Yeah, and they would have said, Oh my god, Pam, I'm so sorry. You know, you're obviously, you know. But people again, you just don't think like that. If if you're not living in that moment, you don't really pay attention to other people. And yeah, I was talking. To someone the other day, and this is it's kind of related. Um, I I was at the the workout facility, the gym, and there's a girl there that's been coming in for you know not that long, and I just I walked by and I said good morning, you know, and it was like, Oh, you know, you could just tell good morning was like a big deal. And you we walking out one day, I just said, Hey, you know, you're doing a great job, awesome, keep it up. And it was like, Wow, you know, thank you so much. I can't believe it. I feel like everybody here is watching me and judging and laughing at me, and you know, I can't do this, or I'm not able to do it. And it's like, no, everybody respects you, everybody appreciates you. You feel that you don't, but it's the exact opposite, and that's the thing that is really heartbreaking in a lot of cases. I think a lot of instances when you look back at people who you know may have not gotten over it, people who have taken their lives, people who have lived through deep depression until the very end. If they just would have somehow been able to realize, or if someone could have just said, hey, look, it's really not that, and it would have made sense somehow, that would have been the most beautiful gift that they could have gotten in life. And I understand exactly where you're coming from there. And you know, like I said, I can't I can't give you enough respect for it because I know it's hard, and you've taken the time, you spent years to put this book together. I know how hard it is when you've got anxiety, when you've got depression. You're probably thinking the entire time, you know, second guessing every single thing that you're doing with the book. Should I really do it? Is anybody gonna buy it? Is it gonna be miserable? You know, and then you start you start distributing your book, you start sending out some copies, you start getting some feedback. Tell me about the first positive feedback that you got from your book. And I want this to be the happiest moment of our entire podcast right here.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

So tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

That's that's always my favorite thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

I think it's even in the back here. Okay, this was some feedback I got from someone I don't even know. She said, I don't know how to praise this book without sounding like a paid shill for the author. I am not, so I'll just say it. This book is the best advice you will ever find. The author nailed it. Something I thought not possible. If you seriously want to help someone, you will read this in its entirety. This needs to be handed out at every therapist's office. Yeah, that was a review that just that made me feel good. And I recently sold a copy of this book to a friend I met on TikTok. We've never met in person, but we've talked on TikTok. And she bought it and she referred to it as a hug in a book. And I said, Oh, what a sweet way to put it, but I'm glad it made her feel that way. So she said it made her feel seen. You know, it just she's has she's my number one fan on TikTok. She always posts in my when I when I post about the book, she's always there in the comments, you know, praising the book. And I appreciate that very much. It just means the world to me.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah, and you deserve it. I mean, that that right there just goes to show all the time, all the effort, every thought that you put into this, you know, the good, the bad, everything in between, yeah, it was so worth it. And your words have now gotten out and have impacted complete strangers to the point where they're willing to take the time and write about the experience. Congratulations on that, my friend. So, now what we need to do, keeping it real. I mean, let's try. I think I told you I've had 43 authors, and I think 23 or 24 have been bestsellers. Yeah, I want 25 best sellers, ma'am. I mean the 20. So, what do we need to do here to get this out into the hands of the public? Where can people find your book? How can we contribute to this? I'm gonna get a copy myself. I get a copy of every author that's on my podcast book, and I've got a whole shelf of them right back here. Oh, nice. I'm gonna put a copy of your book on there as well. But to anybody else that's wanting to buy a copy that's that really resonates with what you've just told us over the last hour almost, and really understands where you're coming from and wants to just you know see what's going on over there and and maybe feel better about life. How do we go about making that happen?

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Okay, well, it's definitely on Amazon, so that's the easy one. Um, it's on Kobo in Canada and Kobo US for Canada Indigo carries it. So any of the chapters, indigo stores. Um, Barnes and Noble, uh, it's on their website. So I would just say a lot of online book sites.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

So they'll just send it right to your house. Yeah, I like going to Barnes and Noble, but I'll tell you what, I go to Barnes and Noble to buy your little thin book, and I come out with like 15 of them, and I can't even walk straight. So it's better for someone like me to be able to order online. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

I'm a bit of a book addict too. I think I have more books saved on my iPad than I'll have time to read in my lifetime, but and I keep getting more. So yeah, I get it. I I use ebooks, it's just easier for me since I'm laying down all the time. But um, yeah, my brother went to a small independent bookstore and asked if they had it. And they well, they didn't have it on their shelves, but the woman went on her computer and she goes, Oh, that just came out. So she went ahead and ordered a copy for him. So he found it just at an independent store. But um, everybody knows Amazon or Barnes and Noble, so check them out. And if you're looking for, there are more than one Pamela Wells, believe it or not. I didn't think it was such a common name, but if I Google Pamela Wells, there's quite a few out there. I tried to look you up on Facebook and I was you know yeah, I even have a friend, I have a friend on Facebook whose name is Pamela Wells. We became friends because of the connection. So I put my middle initial in there, Pamela J. Wells. And it's the only way I could think to separate myself from the others. So if you look for Pamela J. Wells, and then the book is called In Their Shoes because it's what it's like to walk in their shoes, is was the idea behind this.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

So yeah, this has been so much fun. I appreciate you taking the time to tell your story, taking your time to be here on keeping it real, Pam. Means a lot to me, and I really do I I feel your story, you know. Like I've I've kind of lived it myself indirectly, and I know exactly what you what you're feeling. And God bless you, because you're gonna do something that's gonna help people impact lives for years and years and years to come. And you may never know the the total depth of reach that you have with this, no, or you may never you may never hear the absolute best story that ever comes of it, you know, where someone you know is is just right at the edge and and somehow this falls into their lap and they end up having a complete transformation of life, and it's because of you, and just know that that's gonna happen, and that's because you took the time, you were special to find the right people to put it together, to take the time, and at the end, you have the courage to put it out there. So, thank you for that. Congratulations. I hope millions of people buy your books. I always joke and say millions of people are gonna watch keeping it real. It's probably gonna be like a hundred years from now before we get that millionth person, but you know, you and I may both be long gone before then, but we'll be selling books a hundred years from now on this show. So I hope that's the way it goes. And uh, I want to I want to take one quick second, if I may. This is kind of unconventional, but okay, I need to say thank you to my sponsor real quick, if I may. Oh, yeah, go for it. Let me tell you about my sponsor, Pam. My sponsor is a wonderful software called roofer.com. That's R-O-O-F-R. And I told you earlier I own a roofing company. Roofer is a program that was originally designed as a measurement tool where you could take a satellite image and you could measure a roof remotely from your computer, from your phone, whatever. Over the course of time, it's evolved to now being the number one software in my mind in the roofing industry, which basically takes you from your initial contact with your customer all the way through the entire process. Your proposals, your invoices, your material orders, everything is all inclusive inside the program. They can pay their final invoice and it sends reminder emails for years to come telling them to give you a call and let you know about the general maintenance. And Roofer has been my sponsor now for four years. They are absolutely amazing, they've done so much for my roofing company. I love them to death. And I every episode make sure to thank Roofer for that. So now you know, if you ever need to measure a roof, Pam, you know exactly where to go. It's Roofer.com. And I want to thank everybody who watches Keeping It Real. This is a pretty awesome, uh, diverse audience that we have. People reach out to me all the time, and I'm amazed by the people that do see it. So thank you to everybody. This is 257th episode. And uh, Pam, thank you for being here. Is there anything you'd like to say to to end out the show? You've got the stage, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Well, I just want to encourage those people that are depressed that the world's a better place with you in it. So hang in there. I know there are times when it's really hard when you feel no level of hope. I think that's what did it for me when I just felt no hope that I wasn't ever going to beat this thing. And yet, look, I mean, okay, the painful condition aside, because that's completely separate. But mentally, I feel like I'm healthier now than I've ever been. I enjoy life, I enjoy my husband. Um, I spend most of my time laying here, but we have supper together here in the bed, and there's a TV on the wall over there, and we sometimes watch shows together, and I'm happy. And it's like you wouldn't think I would be with the condition I've got, but I'm not letting it bring me down. Um, so yeah, I just encourage those that are depressed. It will get better. I know you right now, it just sometimes doesn't feel like it'll ever get better. Please hang in there. Hang in there, and I really mean it. The world's a better place with you in it.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

There you go. Couldn't have said it any better. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching. We'll see you guys next week. Keep on keeping it real.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

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